Appendix 1: Interview at Beyeler Museum
Introduction
[[This discussion had the goal to find out how the painting Acanthes of Henry Matisse could be created at such a large scale. A secondary goal was to find out how i could use the techniques that Henry Matisse used, in my own creative process. I thought at first that this transcription would be an interview, but it turned out to be a discussion. I had sent some questions to the restaurator from the Beyeler museum in advance on which the restaurator of the Beyeler museum created his lecture. When we were together a lively discussion took place. It was my choice that the people present at the discussion stayed anonymity. I have learned a lot through this discussion about the subject Henry Matisse. The discussion gave me a lot of leads to research deeper into the subject.]]
The goal of this small project was to find out how Henri Matisse may have been able to create for instance the painting Acanthes considering the size of this oeuvre and his physical impairment at the time.
A secondary goal was to find out how I might be able to use the techniques of Henri Matisse in my own creative process. For this I approached the Beyeler Museum in Basel hoping to meet people there who might habe dedicated knowledge.
At first I assumed that this would be an interview so I had submitted some questions to the restaurator of the museum in advance. The interview quickly mutated into a lively discussion and turned out to be an inspiring event for all involved parties.
As for me, I have learned a lot through this discussion about the subject Henri Matisse. The discussion gave me a lot of leads to research deeper into the subject.
Discussion at the Beyeler Foundation about a painting Acanthes by Henri Matisse
This picture is called the Seated Blue nude 4 that is the last one of a series of 4 lithography. It is originally a cut out of Matisse that have been then reproduce true the method of lithography (printing made from an engraved stone). It represent a blue woman sitting in a sensual position with an arm touching her feet and the other over her head. The background is plain beige and the colour of the woman is primary blue, her body occupies the full picture. This cut out is formed out of 10 separate pieces, some are touching each other and some not.
This picture is called the Frog. It is a lithography. The background is yellow and 10 peaces of dark blue gouache colour paper form a special shape. The different pieces are never touching each other. The shape is abstract and reminds of a woman sitting with her arms over her head. The pieces are very elementary, for example the breast and the head are only tree simple circles. The woman's shape is in the middle right and occupies most of the space but on the upper left corner and on the bottom left corner are two abstract pomegranates.
Note: "Am", "Bf", "Cm" are placeholders for people present in the discussion who shall remain anonymous.
Am: We started the project because this.. we’ve got also three other cut outs in our collection, I can... I have three other pictures of them, I think you will know this. This is the very early one, yeah and then this very... yeah, blue one and, yeah.
Bf: Yeah.
Am: This is, I think, the one of our masterpieces of our collection.
Bf: That it’s “the frog,”, actually, if I am not mistaken.
Am: So, this is, this is “the frog”, la grenouille, and this the nude blue one. So... and yeah, this he cut in less then an hour, out of one sheet of paper, so @...@ so.. yeah to get finished (?)
But we’ve got also a very, nice and important painting that’s now in Copenhagen and goes further to an exhibition to New York, ... so it’s actually not here, and these two you can actually see in Zürich at the “Kunsthaus”, there they are exhibited now. So, we have really a very, yeah, good body of work from this cut-outs and it was always. Also when talk to other conservators, how to deal with them, because here, you can see, a stretcher and a canvas. From the front you can only see paper. So, two different materials, three different materials, a stretcher, a construction…
This picture is called White Alga on Red and Green Background and is a hand coloured stencil. The main background colour is red but in the centre is a big green rectangle. Over it is a large white organic shape that looks like a water plant with 10 larges arms. In the white central shape is smaller and repetitive red shape.
Bf: The stretcher is of the brown stuff.
Am: Yes, yeah, that’s the canvas.
Cm: And what’s between the paper and the canvas?
Am: There is another sort of paper, so an intermediate paper, so a packing or kraft paper, a packing paper. So and we always thought, okay, these are so important. And everybody says, they are so fragile, but we had no clue what’s so fragile about them. There were many questions, when you look at them, then you’ll see, or I will come to this later, you see many holes, scratches and we nearly know nothing about the materials that were used. Art historically, this cut outs are yeah, endlessly reproduced and worked with but from the material side, so what we are interested to, because when you.. a good conservation or yeah, preserve it for, for the future, thats only possible when you, when you are really familiar with the material, when you know, where’s the, yeah where’s the weak point, in this whole thing. and so we started this project with yeah with the support of the art insurance company “national suisse”, so they said, okay, we want to sponsor a project, so we said, okay: These works will benefit from that. Also this work was never unframed from the beginning of our museum, so it was 20... over 20 years in his frame and we had this small file with information then. Nothing else. Ernst Beyeler bought these two ones 1960, so very, very early, so, seven or eight years after creation.
Cm: Were they then already expensive? Or was this not done already?
Am: He had his price, because Matisse did know different or make no difference between his paintings and his cut outs.
Cm: Ok For him it was really equal because he said: “Oh, now I found a method, where I can express what I want to express.” I have I think I have also a quote of that, and also in english, in french and in german: “There is no break between my early pictures and my cut outs, except that with greater completeness and abstraction I have attained a form, filter to it’s essentials,” So, and when you look at that, yeah, that is the essential, to... and of the object that I used to present in the complexity, of its base, I have kept only the sign that is sufficient to make the object exist in its own form and for the ensemble in which I conceived it.” So I don’t need the space, because I create the space with my technique. So...
Cm:Is that out of Jazz or is that 5:49
Am: No that’s later, thats later. So this famous quote, yeah, cutting in paper or in, in the coloured paper reminds me of the sculpture or the work of a sculpture with stone material, that’s earlier but yeah it’s going in the same direction. The work have had its price, so but because he said, yeah I’ve put so many effort and so many work in it, because he made no distinction between, or there was no break, between the paintings and the cut outs for him. 6.29
Am: And so he bought this two ones very earlier and yeah in the beginning he couldn’t sell them because nobody wanted them.
Cm: @...@
Am: Because this was something like, “Oh Matisse cuts into coloured paper, why doesn’t he paint, aso (german word) he does no paintings anymore. Whats this for a painter or an artist that works with such a banal material, this coloured things. Ok, yeah that’s not so important anymore, because there are no paintings.”
Cm: So late work.
Am: But yes, yeah but that this is the essence of his work, that only later came or also during his lifetime there were people that were aware of this, but during his lifetime you rarely see them or saw them because they all hang on his walls. So and he only gave, one or two or three to exhibitions and most of them they only sold after his death, to... but all over the world and... 7.44
Am: I will, begin a little bit to or to explain this working method Matisse did 19.. in the 1930s of.. big decoration for the Barnes foundation in Merion in thats next in Philadelphia and because these was so big and he had to try, he used for this parts, coloured papers because he easily could move them and don’t have or and hadn’t to paint them all again and again because Matisse was, not as, Picasso painted,painted,painted and painted. But Matisse when he was not, yeah, when he thought ok this is not a good work at the end of the day the assistants had to scrape all the colour off, of the canvas and then he began from the new one. And yeah this is also 3m by 10m and there he is.... sort of economical reasons that he used coloured papers and then these parts were, were painted in all colour. So, that was a little bit the beginning of, yeah to use it as a working tool and then later on he lived in Nice since the 1920s, far away from Paris. Maybe that was also something because these cut outs were not so present in the daily, Paris, artists life because he had to go to Nice, in the middle of nowhere for the Perrion people, to visit him to see that. 9.23
Am: Than he lived since the 30s in this hotel Regina and this was an hotel that was converted into an apartment building, so he don’t live in a hotel. So these was apartments because after this the first world war nobody came to Nice anymore from the... from the Russian people or also from Great Britain. He had in 1941 a big operation because he had cancer and than he had to move to Leon and everybody said or.... the doctor said that was a miracle that he, yeah survived this because he had lung problems as well so this was really... and he for himself said “ Oh I get a second life.”
Bf: Ya.
Am: And then during this long re-convalescence, he started with book illustrations. So he drew his whole life and said ok then I do book illustration because that was a little bit easier to work. Because he could walk for this but only for some or only for half an hour a day because yeah, this operation, yeah, cut some nerves and so on. So he had to work sitting or laying in bed but there’s also there are pictures where he paints, in bed, so there’s also something we discovered that its really these cut outs are an artistic decision.
Cm: Ya
Am: Or a really artistic decision not such that you can’t do anything else because he could.
Cm: He chose to do this.
Am: Yes
Cm: And you said also that he already also chose to do that earlier when he was actually still healthy.
Am: Yes and then he did, his publisher has said to him “Matisse you have now done all you’ve done, yeah, black and white illustration for books, why don’t you do something with colour because we are always interested in colour. How colours interact to each other.” 11.55
Am: And then he did this famous Jazz album that was then printed 1947 and there, he get to know that this was, yeah this was the technique, he had searched his whole life. During 1948 he also did paintings, so as I showed you, or for comparison this is 47 and 48. So there is a time or a time where he did both.
This picture is called Interior with Black Fern and is an oil painting. It is a very colourful painting where abstraction and realisms are combine together. A white dressed woman in the bottom left corner is sitting on a yellow chair in a living room. In the centre is a green table with a black cup, a pink plate with oranges inside and a big blue pot with white dots on it. Inside this pot is a large dark green fern that occupy a quarter of the painting. The ground is yellow with black dots and the wall in front is chequered red. At the upper right corner is a window and behind this window there are several plants visible.
Cm: Paintings and cut outs.
Am: Paintings and cut outs and then he said ok, these were his last paintings. He said “Ok this is really the method, this is... I get the essence of working. So this is a little bit the context and then during, yeah, a very productive time from 1948 until 1951, he was completely absorbed by his work for the Vence chapel. (Bf and Cm agree). So he... so in this chapel he decided the floor and he decided the roof, he decided everything in this chapel.
Bf: He worked there with a stick and was there a magnet on that stick or so that he put the cut outs on the end of the magnet or what? 13.35
Am: This was I think ya...
Bf: Because I see, I know he worked with sticks.
Am: Yeah, so this is one of this famous pictures and yeah, you really have to have power in your arms to do....
This picture is called Acanthes and is a cutouts painted in gouache glued on wall paper that come from his ohne room. It consiste out of 31 colourful leaves comming from the bottom occuping the two third of a white background. Four leaves close to each other are blue, six are red and five are orange. Thes others ubove them are all mix in diferent green and yellow colours.
Cm: Is there paint across it?
Am: No.. there’s charcoal on it.
Cm: Ha ha, yeah ok.
Bf: Ok.
Am: So on the cord and this... or I think as you, an artist you know this, because you are longing your arm and you can see the whole composition. And first I, I can’t understand why he drew with a stick and so complicated and then I try it myself and I say oh, there I have completely, yeah I have this dimension and I have complete, complete control.
Bf: Yeah, but what I am interested in, is how is this charcoal, that you see there, fixed on the stick, because we... , I put now just tape on the stick and then... 14.43
Am: I think oh this was...
Bf: How, how did he do it.
Am: I think he also all, they also used tape, or.. yeah, or how is it called?
Cm: Can I translate for you?
Am: Faden-(german word).
Cm: Threads.
Am: Threads. I don’t... on the photographs I couldn’t really catch it because yeah and.. it was also for our research not so important to know how this was fixed on the stick. It was more so how that he.. yeah long he could see his arms. And in our work, I think i’ll look where it is lucky I found this over here. 15.32
Am: I think we can, but here we have seven of these lines so they are here and here and here and there and over there so... with these lines he yeah, fixed his first ideas. Oh we thought ok, these are are yeah in which direction, the work has to...
Cm: But the painting as such is finished or is it?
Am: It is finished yes, yeah.
Cm: You don’t think he wanted still to add things or so?
Am: No, but before he drew with this charcoal lines, he put three sheets of papers on his wall, in the dimension of the work. So we found a photograph where you can clearly see this, three papers that you can also see in the work. So one is over here, and then three of them over there. So this was his background, so and he had the dimension in which he arranged the works, or created the works. The next step or before that so thats not quite clear were that assistants painted these papers, so he said “ I want this blue, this green and this yellow.” And there was always stuck off, different coloured papers in the atelier (german word for studio) and when... 17.12
Bf: But what I saw on the video that he used clay and pigments to make the colour, how...
Am: To, make his, his sculptures?
Bf: To make the colour? To make the... these colours?
Am: No, ah so these colours they were bought, in the... in a artist supply store. These are colours form the company Linell, Linell Gouache.1
Bf: Ya
Am: So you can buy them still today and then the assistants use the colours out of these tubes.
Cm: Ok.
Am: There were no mixing of, to get a certain orange or to mixing a certain green because the company had eight shades of green.
Cm: Ok
Am: And seven shades of orange and he choose, “Ok I want this orange and that green.”
Cm: Hmm.. he didn’t mix.
Am: No, he didn’t mix these colours. These colours in the tubes that were mixed, that were mixed by the colour fabric...
Bf: By the company.
Am: By the company, yeah. And this was also something, he did that because he could always say, ”I want this specific red.” 18.38
And then the assistants could easily paint another shhhh... paper with this red or another green or another blue and...
Cm: It’s actually quite efficient how he did that.
Am: Yes, and then the most important part or that what he really does, is the cutting and arranging.
Cm: Ya
Am: And this is, in this whole process it’s, I think the... it needs the small or the... less time but thats the most important thing. So the artistic decision, which colour and in which shape you... you cut the form and where to arrange it and...
Bf: If you then put that on the wall because I know he did it with prints but how do you then take it off the wall, so that it doesn’t break and on to a canvas, that is...
Am: That was also a question that, that arose. We saw ok, there now hanging on the walls. I will come to this now and then, but now they are completely glued on the canvas. So there was, there were happen something in between and I think yeah, definitely know this one of this pictures.
Bf: Wow this is the coloured one that he did.
Am: Yeah
Bf: Shit
Am: So there.. and this cutting goes very fast so when your.. or going a little bit to Youtube you then find this this small, yeah, videos where you can see how he’s cutting and this really goes very fast.
This is a photo of Henri Matisse himself during the last years of his life in his house in Vence in France that was as well his atelier. Matisse is seating in a wheelchair with two large wheels in the front and two small in the back, only the large wheels are visible. He is wearing a black pants and a green pullover. He have white hair and a white beard and he is holding somthing with his two hands. There are a lot of coloured paper cutting on the floor and they is one big cut out fixed on the wall representing a black women with orange skirt and a pink leaves on white background. Behind him there is a lot of working and painting materials.
Cm: Do you think this is from the Paris match repertoires or so? Is there a Paris match number about him?
Am: Yes there, there’s one but this is from another, but the... I think the method or this cutting that was always the same because for him it was not important to really cut, yeah, a sober line here because you always can see that he really...
Cm: Moves fast.
Am: Fast and because he had this form in his mind, he knows what to cut and when you see this from two metres it doesn’t matter at all if there really precise or if there that small. Yeah so, small...
Bf: That is a nice photo.
Am: Yeah and it’s also that he used also this papers that he cuts away and there he could always see “Oh, this forms interesting” again and use this too. 21.27
So the... that was also something that we a have recognised.
Cm: Whether he had a can of schablone (german word for template).
Am: Yeah, or he used the positive and the negative and he used this coloured paper as a colour on a pallet. So, it was like.. yeah, all this red is good here and this shape or maybe I cut a little a bit away and then I can use it there. And it fits perfectly there for him. So and then the next step is because he was a famous painter he had this assistants or he had nurses. So it was a 24hr job, so yeah I think you will also know this and then the assistants are in some cases had to climb on the ladder and he directs where to put this form in.
Bf: With the stick?
Am: Yes too.
Bf: With the stick...
Am: Yes.
Cm: Yes, das ist klar (german-that is clear). Then that is precise you know, you say here, not there.
Am: Yes, yeah. Some of them make some jokes and what did he when assistant didn’t work well,
with the stick but yeah thats, that.. was in the the funny part. @...@ 22.44
And because of that he could also direct the assistants because he could see the whole composition. And he could say a little bit more to the right, to the left...
Bf: This is still then his bedroom or is this already the.. the canvas.
Am: This is still on his walls, so we’re still in the atelier (german word for studio) or in his.. I..
Bf: Bedroom, yeah..
Am: That’s also by Matisse very complicated, is it the bedroom, the sleeping or is it the dining room, is it the living room because he worked everywhere because this his beds removable. So it for him he had know or he doesn’t go to the atelier because his whole flat was the atelier. So he surrounds or he was part of yeah, or he.. yeah...
Bf: He is part of his art.
Am: Yeah part of his art lets say. These were then fixed on the walls and this was done the assistants took a hammer and the nail and fixed it on the wall. And this is a really easy method. We also tried this because it’s ok we now reconstruct a cut out because we have so many information we want to try... I want to try this and this is also a method that you can easily remove and change the composition when.. 24.22
Bf: But I thought he did it with needles but...
Am: Ah.. also with needles but this depends on how big this works were. So the earlier smaller ones were done with needles but the bigger ones he.. to the fix them on the walls but was done by with nails but then to mark on canvas there was another step of working, yeah, to manage to fix the composition on a tracing paper but you know where to glue this on canvas. So this was this fixing on the wall and I could show you some pictures. 25.09
So this is in his Paris apartment. So he really used his walls as a canvas, as or he was really obsessed sometimes with this idea of decor that he saw or decoration. but decoration in the positive sense of the meaning. When we talk or when you talk in German or I don’t know how is it in Dutch when you say “Oh this is a decoration,” then it has a negative touch.
Cm: Ya
Am: For him this was this.. yeah, this whole thing and to show you a detail of how this looked on the walls, they can clearly see this nails all over. @...@ 25.56
Bf: That’s so cool.
Cm: But from far you don’t see them.
Am: Yes, yeah.. it’s a really clever method because he can easily move them.
Cm: Ya
Am: So there are.. a lot of normally it’s or for... for this form he would use... or when you do this 1, 2, 3, 4 and this form hangs on the wall or even 1, 2, and 3 nails that’s enough.
Cm: Cool.
Am: So this the detail and these were then the smaller work and he also arranged his smaller work to a big composition. So and.. this is our work and when you have really a close look on it, I think oh, yeah here I can show you. There you can really see all over this needles, these small black parts.
Bf: Wow
Am: And then you can easily remove this from the wall, so that the smaller ones are not good glued on canvas because it .....
Bf: He put them, he glued them on the canvas and then he put....
Am: Not himself, so he didn’t glue anything on canvas. So, and yeah.. this is the called the ground atelier, so this works yeah, 10m @...@ 27.39
So he really covered his walls with also with his drawings because he drew his whole life, endlessly to.. to get the composition or get the.. yeah, the figure and then it was really the question, these walls ... these works are now hanging on the wall with this nails sticking out of them and at a certain point these nails were so big that he had to find a method to fix them, to secure them.
Cm: To keep them.
Am: To... to keep them, to sell them also and then he worked with a company in Paris Lefebvre foinet. This was a company that was, or an artist supplier store, a very famous one, I think every or I think Jacometti bought all his stuff there and they had also an apartment of restoration where they line paintings so.. and this method to glue these papers on canvas. The yeah, the working method is like if you make a relining of a painting. So if you in French its called a deblume or in German because there they were familiar because he did something completely new. During this time Picasso still paints and Picasso painted until he died on a canvas but he did some installation art. 29.23
So it’s very, it’s also is this a painting or is this a work on paper. So is this a painting , or is this the work on paper. So I as a paper conservator say of course, this is the work on paper! (laughter) My colleague he is paintings conservator he said “No! You forgot the canvas and the structure, that’s a painting.” For Anspire (name of colleague) these was paintings but maybe we it’s something in between or it’s not important anymore for him if this is a painting or a work of paper, it’s an art work. So it’s... I can’t 1953 in this dimensions.
Yeah and to.. I think, were you also.. interested in this, how they glued this actually on the canvas?
Bf: Ya
Am: To do this, you have to do tracing, with a tracing paper because Matisse said or the assistant said, “The most important thing is the composition,where it doesn’t have move a mm.”
Cm: So the proportions are exactly the way they are also.
Am: Because he said, “ He put so many effort and so many hard work but this gets a good composition, doesn’t have to move.” So they had to do tracing over this and when you do a tracing paper over this you can easily, yeah..
Bf: Did they just put tracing paper of his..
Am: Yeah, over his works but there you still have the problem with the nails on it and as we tried it we said, “How does this work because you can’t a precise tracing with this nails.” And then we also get aware, “Oh there’s a second step.” And there the needles are coming and I have got a...
Cm: Ah, there is a difference between nails and needles.
Am: Yes there are, I think in our works we have five different sort of there wholes and they can come form five different steps or five different working processes, so we have the pin or we have this holes form fixing the background paper on the wall. We have the pin holes from fixing the forms on the walls. We have pin holes that we can see when he changed this composition, in the background paper. 32.17
Because you see when he moved this, then you can see the holes in the background paper. We have this, pin holes from the needles because with the needles you can easily fix your forms to the background paper and when you.. so I did a.. little mock up and then you really get a flat..
Cm: And you can still trace.
Am: And you can still trace it. And there you can see, ok, we have this pin holes from fixing it on the wall and you can easily see where the nail goes in and come out or needle comes in and comes out. So it was also for us, ok, pin hole is no pin hole. There are different categories and I think as we first or what we did because we got a little bit of time and so I mapped all these pin holes, so, over a thousand.
Bf: Wow. @...@ (from all)
Am: And we first said, ”Ok what the hell are we doing.” @...@ Because pin holes ok, and after we said ok, we have sometimes, we found pin holes we very clearly can see, there the nail goes in and comes out as for as an example here. And there we’ve got parts where you only have one.. yeah one whole. Ok, why are there differences and then I eliminate all the pin holes where I can clearly say they are not coming from a needle, and then there we had a pattern. Then we thought ok.. this is a really clever method to fix it on this background paper, to get it flat, to do this tracing. And then we said “Oh, good we have mapped this or we maybe have missed this certain part.” So and then..34.31
Cm: How long did you take to pin all of this? Like how much time did it take you?
Am: This mapping, I think I... a month also because no.. because not.. because I.. started here and also mapped other damages, other traces all with what I can see with..with my eyes. And then to get through this I think one and a half month, or.. because you can’t do this from eight in the morning till three in the afternoon so you have to stop after half an hour because you can’t see anything, more. And to show you this layer built up this is the structure and what they in Paris was., because then you have this tracing with the composition and then you can remove everything from the wall. Because you have the..
Cm: You have the trace.
Am: You have the trace and then they all or this was sent to Paris
Cm: Em.. hmm. (Acknowledgment)
Am: After his death in the case of account but they did this or this mounting process was, yeah, was worked out during his lifetime, so he approved this, that this is the method he wants this.
Bf: Ya
Am: In Paris the first thing that they did, they did a temporary stretcher and stretched the canvas on it and then yeah, the motion they did to get the.. the tension out of this, so as normally as when you work with canvas you do. And then the second step was.. is to glue so all these dots are glue and then he... then they glued a craft paper on it so.. a brown wrapping paper and this had several benefits because, with this craft paper you can really work, you can really work on and glue this on the canvas.
Cm: Ya
Am: And then this you really get a hard and stiff... yeah, ground and you have.. you don’t have the structure of the canvas when you glue another paper on it.
Bf: Oh.. no.
Am: So and then glueing this background papers on another paper, glueing paper on paper is quite easier but remember 1m50 by 3m sheets of moisture paper glueing on something, so they really did a good job (sigh of amusement) because that’s.. I think it’s horrible to do then this white background paper with all the charcoal lines... 37.35
Bf: Ya.
Am: Is glued on this and then they painted our background paper white.
Cm: Ok.
Am: So, the white of our background, all over here.
Bf: Yeah.
Cm: Was painted
Am: Was painted by the company, not by Matisse.
Cm: Yep, yep.
Am: Because Matisse said, “I want to have a white background.” And we are thinking about or we also.. that was also a question because some works have a white painted background, some works not.
Cm: Hmm. hmm. (agreeing)
Am: From the same time period. So we ask ourselves, why did they that or.. and in our case, are we are quite sure because we have this original charcoal lines by Matisse.
Cm: Em..hmm. (acknowledging)
Bf: Yeah.
Am: And we said, “We don’t want to throw paper away where charcoal lines by Matisse are on.” So the Cometra everything is... is quite sacred.
Cm: Ya...all of what you see here.
Am: And this paper had a slightly a.. creamish tone and maybe they said ok we paint this white because then we have a white background. A really clear white surface and that’s what Matisse wanted, to see them them, the works. And then you can easily put your tracing over this. Take your form and position it where it belongs too.
Bf: But how did they then put like on.. on.. the.. if I.. look at the blue form for example, did they then say 1 that is number 1, number 2, number 3 did you see something like that?
Am: In our work you can’t see any numbering on the backside but their works where these numbers are cure. In our case it’s quite easy to find out that it’s only one form that looks like this.
Cm: Em..Hmm (acknowledging)
Am: But there’s some where you have or I think.. yeah I think you know this.. this famous piece from the Stedelijk in AMsterdam. I think I also have a picture of that here so to decide where this special pomegranate belongs to, so you have to number it and these are all numbered. So because otherwise you don’t know..to or you have.. have endlessly p..puzzling out, “Oh this is the wrong here oh..” But here we’ve got no numbering on. So and we also or we thought we find something on the.. on the..
This picture is called the Parakeet and the Mermaid and it is a cutouts with gouache painted paper. It is a very large piece of work and concist out of a blue parakeet on the left and a blue mermaid on the upper right. Their presence is lost because theey are surrounded by a lot of organic colorful formst hat look like waterplants. They are pink, red, orange hell green, dark green and blue. Throughout the full picture there are a lot blue pomegranates.
Cm: A bit common.
Am: Yep
Cm: Ya ok.
Am: That was 2007.
Cm: To travel from Istat to here you know because Ancanthes is there.
Am: Yeah and this is the piece from Colonne, actually. So this was..
Bf: So cool.
Am: Yeah this was an exhibition of all the works that Hans Beyeler sold. 40.46
Am: And they were coming...
Cm: They came home.
Am: They came home and.. or partly so because this was an option and then he only auctioned part of it. So there, four art dealers who bought this together and so..
Cm: Ya.
Bf: Ya.
Am: But this, but this he bought and then sold.. sold it to the Ludwig family. So in our case there are no numberings because, it’s not necessary to number it, because you really know where to put the blue form on... in because there all so different.
Cm: Em hmm.. (Agreeing)
Bf: Em hmm...
Am: But in other works there are numbering and signs so, to say where to glue them on. So you put this tracing over this work, put the form on, have to fix it with so it’s also not clear for us if this work lay on a floor.. or on a table or stood. We can’t say anything like.. speculation both could be. 41.58
Bf: I think if I look at myself because I always... only painted with a stick. I would not put that on the floor. I would put that on the wall.
Am: Yep, I think that also from the dimensions that this was standing on the wall and then you would take a pencil, drew around the shape.
Cm: Yep.
Bf: Em hmm..
Am: To know where to glue it on, and when everything was yeah, traced on this background paper then you can glue one by one.
Bf: Okay.
Am: On this, so.. you nearly on every work you find these small pencil lines around the shapes.
Cm: Those are also his assistants who did this because he actually did the cut outs.
Am: Yep, yeah.
Cm: They did, they made it possible for on to him.
Bf: And who that is what they ask lots of times at my school did his assistants then also get some credit for the work they have done....
Am: No.
Cm: @...@
Bf: Because how like... yeah..
Am: No
Bf: At my school they, they often say, “You work with assistants, how, how is that then, how can you call it still your work because you assistants are doing that for you?”
Am: It’s like Jeff Koons. He didn’t paint anything on his paintings, all the assistants paint this small things. He didn’t do the sculptures for this.... by himself. He had the idea and he... or also Matisse, he used the people that were necessary to yeah.. to get to his artistic idea. I think it’s the same in your case.
Bf: Em hmm.. (Agreement)
Am: You have the idea and you say, “Ok on certain reasons I can’t do this by myself or it’s not important for my art work.” If this white background is painted by Matisse or not or if he glued it on or not. That’s not important for the for the art work. And so, or we know some names who worked on.. or glued this on but that’s or it’s never credited anywhere or he also credited it not because he also didn’t say where he bought his canvas because...
Cm: Renzo Piano also did not build his house himself but it’s his house.
Am: Yeah.
Bf: Yeah.
Am: So it’s quite interesting that this question also rising in your working method. 44.49
Bf: That the school is constantly searching how do we have to value the work from you and how do we value the work...
Am: Ah, ha ok.
Bf: From what the assistants did?
Am: Ah..
Bf: Although it is my idea.
Am: Ok.
Bf: They have done also a part in that and where do we have to look how do we to credit that.
Am: Ah..huh.
Bf: How do we make the notes. (Marks)
Am: Ya but it’s is the same as with jacques mattes sculptures he didn’t or in some case he really casted himself but in most cases these were done by a specialist by a company...
Bf: Yeah
Am: But it’s still the sculpture of Jacometti, or it’s so, so this is..
Bf: Because it is his idea. So...
Am: Yeah, And... and I think go back to Rubens or to other famous artists. So the backgrounds or some.. so... sometimes he only painted the face and the hands and everything else other people or his assistants or his pupils would painted them because he has the control and I think this was important.
Cm: He is the mastermind.
Am: He has the artistic control over it, he decided what the assistants do and he decided if the assistants put their orange form there, oh, or there. He didn’t say to the assistant “Oh put them on the wall, it doesn’t matter at all.” He is precisely said where to put them.
Cm: Because he had an idea.
Bf: Yeah
Am: Yes,yep. So, and then, yeah, the work is then finished on.. on canvas and this is also a result of our project that many things that you really see on the surface or how we now look on the work., many of this or parts are actually not coming from the atelier. So there are two parts it’s the atelier and the artistic.. thing and this.. the other big part is the mounting on canvas. That yeah, it really is important, and they really did.. I think really a good job because it is not so easy, to glue this in such...
Cm: What is also interesting is when you look for example at the blue shape you have really the feeling like this part is next to that part you can actually put them together and they make a form but with if you do that with the other ones it doesn’t fit that easily.. like the blue you can push together and they... and the other ones don’t go together.
Am: Yes (in agreement with Cm) It is also interesting mapping all this pin... all this holes, we can.. or we can say that he began with the blue shapes and then it yeah.. evolves in this direction and is also the.. the direction of.. of the dynamic after that, because here you only have very few pin holes, there you get a lot of... of them. That’s also interesting how he worked with space because for me this blue comes to the front and the orange goes to the back. 48.19 Bf: Yeah you can just..
Am: And it’s normally the other way around, normally the blue goes to the back and the... and the orange comes to the front and it’s also that.. I really because I looked at this work for three years so I have got a special relation with that.48.34
Cm: @...@
Am: The space between...
Cm: Do you dream of it?
Am: No.
Cm: @...@
Am: No, not yet but maybe.
Bf: And what was your what was... how did you become interested then in Matisse. And say hey I want to do this work. 48.52
Am: By it was not really a decision by me because I was trained as paper conservator as your colleagues at the Hochschule in Bern. So they also have a conservation department. So but i did this in Stuttgart. So I’m quite familiar with the material paper. And then yeah, they asked me to or to work on that part.. piece because for me in first place the material is interesting and not what the artist really did with the material, so a conservator looks more from the material side to look what’s this.. the material in there and how does this age and what I have to do with the works. But also, yeah I am not working with colour papers, I am working with a Matisse cut-outs so I also had to know something about the artist.
Bf: Yeah.
Am: Because if you don’t know how the artist works you maybe would say “Ok oh these are all damages, oh this is a damage, oh this is not exactly a cut, oh and this colour is faded away, I will repaint it and so on.” But you really have to also have an idea what was important for the artist so you have also this yeah, this working of an artist in mind. To not treat something that is original from the artist and then you treat it and then you yeah..
Bf: You..
Am: Make even a bigger mistake. Ha..
Bf: Yeah. 50.40
Am: So and luckily our work was really in a good condition. We only had to work on yeah, on the edges because the work was yeah, transported until the seventh.. until the seventies, roll because how to transport this. It’s even today is this a big problem because sometimes yeah, the doors are not big enough, or yeah, the elevator is not big enough, or yeah the transporter is not big enough.
Bf: Yeah I know, but that I have also when I work with my paintings in my car. I work also with big things because my ...of my motoric and then yeah, how, it’s very spontaneous but now how to.. how do I get it to where i actually want it to have?
Am: Yeah, yeah.
Bf: It’s was really big...
Am: Yeah and until the seventies yeah.. they put it off the stretcher, rolled it, sent it to where ever it goes Copenhagen, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Paris.
Bf: And the stretcher is that.. brown?
Am: Yeah the brown that you see underneath the aluminium frame. I think we can later can have a closer look to the structure actually that you get some details and then the stretcher was also.... was separated and then it was yeah re-stretched in (clarence) copenhagen, where else. 52.31
And then after an exhibition it was re-stretched or taken off the stretcher, sent back to Basil, re-stretched and I think nearly 8... 6 times.
Cm: And yeah thats why you want the corners to have...
Am: And yeah that’s why we have all.. have at the at the edges, lift the papers then in the sixties they glued this paper that came off the canvas back and yeah took a brush, glue and then fixed it again and this glue discolourated over time. And it was really disturbing because when you... had a look at the margins, so this is after the treatment. You have always this glue noses and now you really can focus on the composition. So luckily we only had to work on there because so i don’t want to pull them all away because yeah...
Cm: @...@
Am: Yeah, and so we really had much to or... many time to really to yeah, focus on the research. So on this working method because as we started we don’t have an idea about the... it could also of been the way round that we have to really or had to work all year doing some treatments or to do a new stretcher or to change the canvas or what else. You can or but what can you do but it was not necessary the company in Paris really did a good job with this mounting because first time we thought ok, we’ve got here gouge, paper, glue, paper, glue, paper, canvas, stretcher and these are all materials that react slightly different over time and we thought ok but we nearly saw 60 other cut outs thats nearly 1 quarter of all that Matisse did. And that was never the problem that this forms came of the canvas because this was quite stable. The problem really is the light exposure of his works because it’s like always paper is a light sensitive material so lay a newspaper in the sun and then you really get brown. Because this is or this is a very, very, very, very good example because it’s not a high quality paper.
Cm: Yeah. 55.30
Am: But for some artistic reasons you have to use it or you will lose it. So, because I will always say an artist is free to choose the material he wants to. So and then I as a conservator i have to deal with that.
Cm: @...@
Bf: @...@
Am: So but that’s a.. ok because or when I’m asked or when it doesn’t matter if an artist used high quality or low quality material then I say ok use the high quality because it lasts longer. But when it’s not important or yeah, for artistic reasons you really have another.. thinking of.. changing’s and bit of the problem is the paper because when you.. when you imagine that when the background paper yeah, gets browner and browner then oh you can really see it here, where parts are slightly browner.
Cm: Hmm..
Bf: Yeah
Am: There... the.. these are parts where the gouge is really applied very thin on the paper.
Cm: Hmm Hmm..
Am: In this areas the gouges who has a really thick layer of paint but as they painted it white, so painting white paint on a white surface you can’t really see if your even or not. So during over time here the light had more accessibility to the paper underneath and browned it more here than there. 57.09
And this is really something we are aware.
Cm: Now you able to correct this or isn’t?
Am: No, we didn’t do anything on that because we said “When we painting it here white then in 30 years we see where we painted it white.” Because that’s always... so also with re-touching’s I have seen works where they have re-touched all scratches all markings and now you see the re-touchings because there ageing different or they are yeah after 20 years it’s another material that’s been put in.
Cm: So yeah, you would not correct these things because it is an original piece.
Am: No.. it’s... there’s a piece and it’s not so disturbing and yeah....
Bf: And maybe...
Am: And doing such.. such intense treatment on such a work, ah.. so I won’t do that also yeah.. yeah you could ask for a... what might be my quite nice example over there where I see. Ok you could ask, “Ok we’ve got a browning on the margin, yeah change it to white paper but then I have the signature of Matisse and treating this is like as to change this sorry but not.” Ha ha.
Cm: Yeah. 58.42
Am: So, ha... hmm.. it’s like painting the smile of the Mona lisa again on the work so it’s like yeah you have to deal with that material ages over time and we can say “Ok protect this at best..as much as possible to show it under controlled lightning so that or with you re-filtering glass so under a constant climate conditions.” So that it will it last yeah, I don’t know how long this, so will last.
Bf: But what have you now then decided about the lighting?
Am: So we decided ok, no U.V. because this is high energy, yeah, lightning and see when you go to the beach and don’t put on a U.V. protection on or going in the snow, so to the Alps. You have to protect you from this really high energy and here we can decide which lightning and also can protect our... or windows so these are all U.V. protected and then with also the glazer you could do also another U.V. protection on so shutting down the light as you can see at the digger exhibition. These are 50 - 60 looks so this is common sense to lightning works of.. on paper. 1.00.24
Am: You say... because you say ok, 50 looks say you can also see details, if you going down or when it’s darker then you can’t see any details or any colour because everything will getting grey and don’t like it too much, so this is the end.
Bf: Because this...
Am: Also to show it not the year round. Only show it 3 or 4 months a year. So this is also the... the dilemma when the conservator or... is in. So the best possibility would be putting it in storage no light at all, right!
Cm: @...@
Am: But yeah, an art work that you can’t see it’s.. it doesn’t work. So, or that’s not the same for an art work anymore.
Bf: And for Matisse light was very important because it became in his later life his most important tool.
Am: Yes, yeah, yeah.
Bf: And he even liked the light of the sea.
Am: Yes yeah that’s...
Bf: So for him light was... priority number one.
Am: Yes, yeah that’s because he moved to Niece because he said, “ I like this Mediterranean light.” But he also was aware of the light sensitivity of his cut-outs because he send a letter to a guy who bought.... oh yeah, actually bought “La Parish.” 1.02.02
Am: In the... in 1953 this is one of the very few works that were sold during his lifetime.
Cm: Ok.
Am: To.. Mr Beretta in Paris.
Cm: Em..hmm...
Am: And then he wrote to him, “Oh I know, oh I really know where you put it in your apartment.” So imagine how big the apartment was of Mr Beretta.
Cm: @...@
Am: So yeah, and he wrote to him,“ Oh I know where you will install it but I am afraid that there comes to much light into the room. I really... yeah, want that you, yeah install jalousie or something that the hard light will not damage my work.” Because he said, “Gouges are not so fragile as aquarelles but are not... but there are not a ceramic or an oil painting they are sort of fragile materials. And I put so many works, to fix out which colour next to another and I don’t want it that one colour fades away because then my whole composition, gets another feeling or gets another sense.” So he was also, it was very, very nice or very, very interesting to find this letter that he also was aware. And.. and there’s also a quote by his assistants that he used a certain pinkish colour...
Cm: Ha. 1.03.45
Am: That he noticed fades away in half a yeah and he didn’t use this anymore because he said, ”I have to have stable colours.” And also doing our research and also our analysis, luckily our colours are quite stable. So we don’t have a colour in here that gradually fades away and it was also a question in the beginning why is this part.. so this form is made out of three papers. So all other forms are cut out of one but there he used three different to create one shape. So this is also interesting working method. He used both.
Bf: Yeah.
Am: Because he said, “Oh I have the idea for form and I have this here, Oh because it’s a very easy method.” And, yeah we thought, “Oh, this has faded away or something has happened.”
And yeah, looking at it under a microscope and doing analysis it’s only painted thinner.
Cm: Ok.
Am: So if you painted a colour thinner it gets lighter and but the next question was, is this on purpose or not?
Cm: Ha...ha.
Am: So and I think good old matter, I think this was on purpose because he was aware that this was lighter and this was the....
Cm: (Mumbling not heard)
Am: This was the sort of the disturbing element or the yeah, the lively thing in. Because otherwise he could easily of said to his assistants...
Bf: Take it off.
Am: I want take it off, I want to have this red in an hour or half an hour even if it was 4 in the morning. So these assistants were there, yeah.
Bf: But were they really working, day and night?
Am: Yes day and night. 1.05.55
Am: So these assistants they were assistants in an artistic way. They were nurses, they were yeah... yeah..
Bf: Like they could... he could really say at 4 o’clock in the night, now I want to work.
Am: Yes, and he did.
Bf: Hmm... how did you... how do you know that he did?
Am: Because the assistants told that because or.. many or ... many or maybe 5, 4 6 assistants and they also get nervous breakdowns.
Cm: @...@
Dm: @...@
Am: Because...
Bf: Do you have that on paper.
Am: @...@ So I think this is or there is this good biography about him from Sperling. So also in English and this is really quite readable.
Bf: Ok.
Am: And also in other quotations so this is something....
Bf: Can you see this...
Cm: So he was already a star when at this period he was already a star.
Am: He was matisse he was the most important French artist, during this time because Picasso2 or.. next to Picasso because... Picasso.. Spanish.. but work.. but, with him. So and that’s quite interesting because they really, yeah.. there’s a description by Françoise Gilot then the wife of Picasso that it was really a tradition on sunday going to..to Vence and visiting Matisse.
Cm: Ya... @...@
Am: That was quite yeah, a really big thing going to Matisse and..
Cm: Yeah.
Am: Because all they have diametral, yeah.. artistic views but they really like or respected each other and as Matisse died, Picasso said, “ Oh now I’m alone.” So or... he couldn’t go to the or he didn’t go to the funeral because he couldn’t stand it and yeah said, “Ok, so I lost my... or I lost my counter part.” And this was also... they also, yeah.. get some paintings to each other.
Cm: Hmm..
Am: And it is a.. very interesting when you get access to our collection, there’s on Picasso, a very early one, “couche ball de citron” (wrong spelling). In the first gallery on the at the windows and...
After analysing the text of the interview I found it extraordinary how many times we can repeat a single word during a conversation and not be any the wiser to it. Sometimes it is almost like we have a stutter but an unnoticeable one, only after examining the text did I see this profound pattern.
Words Removed (Repeats)
| A - 9 | Erm - 315 | Not - 1 | Was - 4 |
| About - 1 | Focus - 1 | Of - 12 | We - 5 |
| After -1 | For - 1 | Oh - 1 | We - 6 |
| All - 2 | For - 1 | On - 2 | We’ve - 1 |
| Also - 1 | Frame - 1 | On - 6 | Were - 2 |
| Aluminium - 1 | From - 2 | Or - 6 | What - 6 |
| An - 1 | From - 7 | Our - 1 | When - 4 |
| And - 10 | Glued -1 | Part - 2 | Where - 3 |
| And - 2 | Go - 1 | Push - 1 | Which - 1 |
| Another - 1 | Got - 1 | Quite - 1 | Who - 1 |
| Any - 1 | Has - 1 | Really - 1 | Will - 1 |
| Around - 1 | Have - 7 | See - 1 | Will - 1 |
| As - 2 | He -14 | So - 2 | With - 1 |
| Assist - 1 | His - 6 | Some - 2 | With - 5 |
| At - 3 | How - 6 | Standing - 1 | Working - 2 |
| Because - 1 | I - 19 | Take - 2 | Would - 1 |
| Big - 1 | If - 2 | That - 2 | Yeah - 1 |
| Black -1 | In - 10 | That - 6 | Yeah - 2 |
| But - 1 | In - 10 | That’s - 13 | You - 2 |
| By - 1 | Is - 3 | The - 30 | You - 9 |
| By - 1 | Is -3 | Then - 1 | Your - 1 |
| Can - 1 | It - 4 | There - 5 | |
| Can - 2 | It’s - 16 | There’s - 1 | |
| Can’t - 1 | Know - 1 | They - 4 | |
| Clear - 1 | Make - 2 | Think - 1 | |
| Could - 1 | Matisse - 1 | This - 11 | |
| Cut -1 | Maybe - 1 | This - 12 | |
| Did - 2 | Mediterranean - 1 | To - 43 | |
| Done - 1 | Mixed - 3 | Took - 1 | |
| Er - 75 | No - 1 | Was - 2 |
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In the discussion about colour there is a reference to the company Linell being used by Matisse to produce his colours. The evidence shows otherwise, Matisse’s assistants mixed the colours themselves at least at the start of his work. When he produced the album “Jazz” (1947) the colours of the company Linell were used for printing purposes. Evidence can be found on the DVD “Die Grossen der Moderne.” by Alain Jaubert (2009) and on www.henri-matisse.net The idea of the first paint mixing machine came about in the sixties at a company called Fillon. www.fillontech.com ↩
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In the discussion Francoise Gilot is referred to as being the wife of Picasso. There is evidence that this is not true. She was the mother of 2 of Picasso’s children but they were never married. Evidence found on wikipedia. ↩
